INTRO
On this week's episode of Midlife AF I am going to share with you one of my favourite people, Jane Hutchins. Jane joined me a few weeks ago as part of my Live AF series for the launch of the great Aussie Alcohol Experiment in June and she is a nurse, a herbalist, a nutritionist and she works with women in perimenopause and beyond, and we are talking about rest and resting and how important that is in life stage and also how to get it so over to me and Jane.
If you're a woman in midlife whose intuition is telling you that giving booze to the elbow might be the next right move, then midlife AF is the podcast for you. Join counsellor, psychotherapist this naked mind and grey area drinking alcohol coach Emma Gilmour for a weekly natter about parenting quirky teens, menopause relationships and navigating this thing called midlife alcohol free. If you're feeling that life could be so much more that you're sick and tired of doing all the things for everyone else. If your intuition is waving her arms, manically at you saying it could all be so much easier. We didn't have to keep drinking. Come with me. Together we'll find our groove without booze.
MAIN EPISODE
Emma: This is beautiful Jane. Jane, would you want to introduce yourself? Actually, aren't you better that you can do it than me? And then we'll talk about what we're going to chat about.
Jane: Okay, so I'm a registered nurse, naturopath, nutritionist, herbalist, and I've worked in women's health for the better part of four decades, which is hard when you're only 26 yourself. So, women’s health is my area. I'm particularly interested in a couple of things, but particularly around transitions, and perimenopause and menopause, and then rest. Over the last few years, I've just jumped into rest big time, because it's so undervalued and so critical for our well being.
Emma: Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you are here, Jane, I love everything that you do. Please follow Jane. Jane, can you just say what your handle is for people?
Jane: It's JaneHutchins.com.
Emma: We are turning this episode into a podcast as well, everybody. So don't worry, you won't, you won't miss out if you miss it live. This is so important to me talking about rest in midlife. Because I know I'm coming from an alcohol perspective. But a lot of the reason that women drink is because they're freaking exhausted. And they drink to push through. And they drink to push down. And so many of the people I work with are on this sort of hamster wheel of obligation and self judgement and trying so hard to find vitality and looking for vitality and alcohol because it promises it even though it's the opposite. So I thought it was really important to bring you on Jane, not just because you are such a fountain of knowledge around all things, women's health, but because what Rest is your specialty and because I think rest is got so many nuanced issues for us, in terms of our belief system around what rest means. And so that's what I'm going to say and I'm going to hand it over to you Jane to talk about rest in perimenopause and your interpretation of what rest means to you and how women can get more rest you know?
Jane: Well, that was brave just handing it over to you without some of the restrictions and some sort of limitation. So yes to everything that you just did, and I really you know, drinking is a hard numbing thing for so many women. Yeah, sure. Some people take it for fun, let's have some champagne and bubbles and yada yada. And as you said the promise may not deliver on that. But I think So much of it is self medicating. Grim, but that's really what it is about. And certainly for myself I might think alcohol use was much more about numbing. And it's not effective, but it's very clear and easy to understand why people do it. And the exhaustion is real, like it's so big. And it can be on a big issue or on a little issue, it could just be because it's been a busy time in women's life, it could be because they've made, you know, 12 or 15,000 meals and if they ever have to cook a meal for another person again, they might just lose it.
And then there's a whole range of physical things that are happening so that the physical transition in perimenopause is exhausting your body. Most women notice things change in your body after menopause with hormonal changes, including insulin, and not just oestrogen. But that metabolic shift in your body happens in your brain as well. So after 45 years of your brain’s eating glucose for energy, it says just something different. And it wants ketones from fat. And I'm sorry. What are you doing changing these? Now? I didn't know that. And because hormones are going up and down, then it is oh no, actually, I'm glad again, oh, no, no, no, no, back to the insulin. But as it goes through those shifts, it's exhausting. Yeah, and your brain doesn't work quite as clearly as before, and everything becomes harder. And the idea of taking on any kind of program and bettering yourself in whatever way you feel necessary, which there is none. It's just overwhelming. So what we need to do is just step back for a moment, or a lot of moments, and honour ourselves. From a life stage, from the societal expectations from the physical things that are happening. And it is interesting, because I do and have launched deeply into all of the different physical treatment interventions that we can do. And it just keeps coming back to just go ahead and lie down. Simple, isn't it?
Emma: It's the opposite of what we think. I work with so many women, and we're like, what can we throw at this problem that we have to fix? And it's actually no you're not broken? And actually throwing any more shit in there is going to make it harder until the point where you go past no return, you know? And you're in burnout.
Jane: Yeah, absolutely, totally. And it's not this constant striving for self improvement. We've all been there, we all do it. It's just how it is. And also, the thing that kind of bugs me a bit and we've spoken about this is that notion that we're selling, rest as productive as well. It's rest, we don't have to measure anyone by their productivity. We don't have to measure an action by whether it's productive or not. Before saying it's something worth doing, we need to honour our need for rest. We need to honour the fact that at this stage of our life, our need is bigger, we absolutely need to pause, reflect, see what we can get rid of, like just discard behaviours or non functional relationships or expectations of our own or others. See what we can delegate? Like, have you been doing it all, like three, four decades now? And seeing what we can defer, like do we really have to do that now. Or can we just go and spend 10 minutes in a spot of yoga nidra on the floor, get a blanket and take it down. There's everything at this stage apart from regardless of your lifestyle. In your brain, the changes in neurological changes, it feels like a piano that's out of tune. So it's all just a bit clunky. And instead of ice to push through, we need to step back and quiet and to allow things to adjust and to allow ourselves to transition and to support and nurture that need. If you want to go into a boot camp, you can also do that. Like if you want to go do a marathon. They're not exclusive. So it's not like everyone has to sit around meditating 20 hours a day. It's like having a rest then you can actually do the things that bring you joy and fun and laughter.
Emma: It's also interesting, isn't it? I think as well that concept of, you know, fixing ourselves and you know, the answer being to try harder. And, in fact, I had a situation with my daughter this morning, who is suffering from autistic burnout. So she's really struggling with nervous system and fatigue. And she was trying to get into school this morning. And it's, it's the trying, actually, that causes the exhaustion as well.
Jane: Absolutely, and we so often forget to stop them. So don't like this worth trying for? What is it that I'm burning myself out?
And we don’t.
Emma: But it’s so easier said than done. Because often, I think this idea of productivity, like you say, it's ingrained in us from, you know, early childhood, in order to have a value in the world, we have to create the personality of productivity of being, you know, on top of it all. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that Jane, and how you can bring rest in, if your social and cultural conditioning is that your worth is based on your productivity. And in order to fix yourself, you have to keep doing more.
Jane: I think the first thing is to really just take some time and reflect. And it may be worth, or necessary to do that with someone else in a professional capacity or with a loved one or someone that you trust. Or it may be that you do that most effectively by yourself. And sometimes it's more likely, it's going to be a combination of those things. And depending on everyone's own experiences, and their understanding of their upbringing, and what culture they've brought into, or bought into, I should say, different industries even have different beliefs around that. And I really see that whilst I speak about women and women's experiences, that's not to say that other people don't have challenges and expectations that are unfair, and so forth. So just want to put that out there that it's not an exclusive domain to be burnt out. But there is a very strong socio-political thing about being quiet: don't express your needs, anticipate other people's needs, be it your boss, your partner, or your child. So you're doing all of the things for all of the people. And we either don't learn and learn how to do it for ourselves. So it's taking some time to sit with that, and that can be really confronting. So that's why I say it can be really valuable to do some of that work with other people. And from a rest point of view, resting gives you space. So you can't do some of that reflective work. If you're constantly working through your list, either in your mind or on your computer or on your phone or whatever, you need a pause and I think stop learning and just back off. And resting creates a little bit of quiet. And by rest, to be clear, we don't kind of jump into nirvana and it's peaceful and silent and full of butterflies. There's still lots of noise. And sometimes there's less noise and others, but the goal is to just turn it all down. So we have some spaciousness to think about. I mean, this transition phase of my life, how do I want it to go? Do I keep doing the same and you know, sometimes be like, how we were doing it? It just doesn't work for us now. Or the circumstances have changed your relationships, changed your words, changed how your children have grown up. The children haven't grown up yet. Whatever. It's just reflecting that this is still work for me now. Yeah. And everything is changing in my body and my physical being. How do I want the rest to be okay, another 40 years ahead of me 101. And you can't have that discussion drunk - well you can but it's not usually that great. But, having space to just sit with that is really, really important. And it gives us space to imagine something different. And that's what's nice. And not just keep doing and doing and doing and doing and doing is your wake up and you think, What on earth am I doing?
Emma: I find it's so interesting how when you're in something, it seems impossible to change. Yeah. When you do, you know, you're forced by circumstances outside of your control potentially, to change. You find that actually, it's not as they will check. It was possible. It just didn't feel possible in a whole range of different aspects of life. Yeah. And I think the other thing that I really like, being on the other side, is that it's awesome. And you know, there's so much in the media and it's kind of good in a way that social media and media, there's more and more about perimenopause, and menopause. That's fabulous. Because it's not been spoken about, because it seems to be worse than talking about period pain. It's like menopause. It's the great nexus of ageism, and sexism. Got hit by both at once. So it's been great that there's a lot of talk about it, but so much of it is caught up in a really negative perception of it. Yeah. Yeah, menopause can be really hard. No doubt about that. The majority of women, it's a challenge, but not terrible. But on the other side of it, it's just, it's extraordinary. I don't, I'm not quite sure what happens is there's this one of the things there's an expression that oestrogen is the hormone of compliance. So as your level's job, your compliance, and your agreeability, or just taking compromise, compromise, compromise. So you just kind of wake up and go, you know, whatever. I'm not interested. And it's very freeing. It's really liberating. And I wouldn't have thought that I had that veil.
Yes, because I'm quite independent and quite autonomous. So but it was there, somehow and somewhere still, and it's a really nice world over here.
Emma: Yeah. i It's so interesting, isn't it, because that idea of me, oestrogen spike on nurturing hormone, and when external nurturing hormone, and when it starts to get less, our ability to suppress and nurture reduces, which can be quite confronting for the people around us, because it works very well. For other people. And I'm talking, I'm talking partners, I'm talking kids, it works. You know, it makes life a lot easier for a whole heap of people, when we're compliant, and nurturing everybody else.
Doing all the compromises. Right?
Jane: But it's long term, it doesn't because, you know, if we keep doing that post, when the chemicals are changing in our body will be in burnout, then we won't be able to look after anybody.
Emma: Oh, absolutely. And then I'm just going to challenge you on. I think I should n't think we've come there loving and nurturing past menopause. I think how we dress changes and and I think, I think for some of us, it's the first time we really reflect that back to ourselves.
Jane: Yes, I agree. Totally agree. Totally. It becomes more than changes of dynamic massively, it's less externally focused. It's less about keeping everybody else because I think it's that you know, otherwise we do Tae Yong kind of thing. It's like yeah, are you looking out? Now I get to like it. And that's what I love what you do and the work and it really aligns with my way of thinking of perimenopause and menopause because to me, it's a becoming, it's a creative time. And it's about it, it's an opportunity to reassess.
Emma:Totally. And I love the word creativity, because the last few years, who everyone does, what's your word for the year thing? Mine has been a competition. We're not a competition that's been a twin thing of gentleness, rest and creativity. Enter my life circumstances during my study and so forth. Creativity is absolutely taken a backburner. Yeah, so I'm really ready to go full creative. I have no idea what that looks like. But I love the fact that I have space for that now in my head. And I think it is a really fantastic time to change that dynamic. Where you are looking after yourself in a more comprehensive, caring, self compassionate way. Like we're not talking, right narcissism, we're talking. You still have you and you need to go after that self. Yes. But ultimately, that boosts good relationships. It does it actually. Yeah, definitely. It's a really good time. And having
Those difficult conversations, even though they're scary, is the way that the relationship develops, you know, it gets, it gets more, you know, progresses.
Emma: Yeah. I guess there's a couple of things that happen at once. There's a bazillion things that happen at this time. And one of the things that I say, to go on social media is rage, but then getting off on rage. Yeah. And I want to be really clear, I've done rage. Yeah, kind of like at times, that's okay. But not making that your identity or thinking that's the only way of being. And so often we rage and anger, those hurt and anxiety underneath it, sadness and grief. And that's the other thing that we don't talk about at this time, is that it can be a time of great grief. So that might be just hard to put your parents into a nursing home and they hate you for it. And you hate yourself, your relationship may not be great, kid might not be great. You know, your job might suck. Your body hurts, nothing's working. You didn't get to have that second child that you had your heart set on, you didn't get to have that one chance that you had your heart set on. So there are a lot of potential sources of grief, a re-imagining of who you are. And am I not the sex pot that I used to be? That's not me talking. But you know, all those things. I know. It's really, really big. And we talk about hot flashes or hot flashes. And that really that's not the thing, like it's there, but it's not the thing. And being aware of all those issues. And when we talk about feeling burnt out and tired. There's all that non physical stuff, relationships, but your self care, do you start? Are you validated? Do you feel supported, do give and get nothing back, all of that stuff. And then there's a whole bunch of stuff like, why you've got some inflammation in your brain because of the hormone and chemical changes that you're going through your insolence out of whack, your reproductive hormones are going up and down. Your inflammatory markers are high, your body hurts, you might have thyroid underactivity, you might be spot anaemic, because your periods are out of control. There are so many physical reasons to also feel exhausted. And it's really important to test it out okay. And it's not going to be one thing, just a tip. It'll be a combination of things.
Emma: Yeah, it's never one thing. So it's really interesting. I'm just gonna put my headphones on, it might mean that I'm disconnected just because my neighbour has started banging, so bear with us. So yeah, you know, I mean, we all do it. You're out with friends. And someone says, I've got this complaint and we'll go, oh, let me help you. Let me tell you all the things that helped me. Yes. And that's nice. But it can be confusing and distracting. And you can take something that's useless at best, might be harmful at worst, and you probably wasted your money. So. So resisting the temptation to go and buy all of the things to make you feel better because it's probably not going to have a massive impact if you're not addressing the key thing for you. It's because that'll be different. It's so nuanced, isn't it?
Jane: Absolutely. And you know, rest is rest is precious and it's your birthright. You don't have to earn it by being productive. As we said before, you don't have to justify it. And it is really uncomfortable if you're not used to doing it. I don't really know. I know, I've always been overdoing things. And I always over engineer my life. I'm gonna rephrase that. I have a history of over-engineering my life. I'm now getting better at it. My partner used to tease me about it. And I didn't realise at first that he was teasing me. He would say, ah, ah, you're stopping. A little bit lazy? And I would, I mean, it was so obvious just to do. Like, it wasn't even subtle. He was clearly teasing that I would buy it. Yeah. And so I wrote this and just shut up. Just go, just stop. He's, he's, he's highlighting the fact that you're overdoing it. He's not saying you're lazy. But, you know, partners are great at finding your weak spot, your tender point. But it was also really good for me, because it's like, yeah, I don't have to justify this for anyone. I need to clearly have a conversation with myself. And that was all.
I had almost that exact conversation with him this morning. It is and you know, we are so caught up in how we get to this point. And it's very individual, of course, but I think some of that cultural stuff is really so deeply ingrained about serving that it's, you know, and for instance, men of my age, it's just deeply ingrained that you're meant to go out and earn and earn the money, and yada, yada, yada. And that doesn't help them either. Because it puts them in a box as well. Yeah. So I think we all need to get out of our boxes and do what they will be like self compassionate self care.
And it's those boxes that are keeping us in this horrendous state of over productivity and anxiety. I think it's, you know, expecting those boxes, that cultural conditioning, and in different ways, you know, totally differently even.
And I was just gonna say you mentioned anxiety there. So, where I said earlier, yeah, we have hot flashes, but that's not the thing. That's not the big thing. In my practice. It's absolutely anxiety, mental health, fatigue and brain fog. That's fun. Come to see me. And sometimes they haven't even connected it to perimenopause. Not always happy I told them that probably. But once we go through the history, and it's like, you probably don't yourself sometimes when you tell your story in whatever capacity then you go, Oh, okay, right. I've got it now. And just telling you sometimes all you need to do. But yes, anxiety can really increase. And I think something that is helpful for women to know and I know this is not directly about rest, and alcohol. But if you have a history of anxiety in particular, but also depression or other mental health conditions in the past, that does increase the chance that you will experience a flare of that in perimenopause in the physical transition stuff in your brain increases the risk a little bit, and you had PMS or PMDD or any perinatal mental health concerns that might make you a bit more at risk in perimenopause. So I think knowing that might sound a bit depressing. Is that great? Do I not have enough to deal with? But no, that's a risk when you start to feel things you can identify it and say, Okay, I think this is what's happening. And that gives you the ability to address it in whatever way that's going to work. Starting to feel anxious and overwhelmed. And grabbing a bus or 10 of wine is not the strategy strategy that will help it will increase your anxieties, you know, so it's I think it's useful to know that and also this when we've got through stuff before and remember I'm enjoying and skills and strategies and tools I've used previously, can help at this time.
100% It's interesting as well, that there's so much research now showing that women who had ADHD as well, when they hit perimenopause and menopause, that their symptoms become much more pronounced. And so that's a lot of the reason why a lot of women are like finding out that they're ADHD in menopause and perimenopause. Because yeah, that's that in terms of things like brain fog, memory, focus. Achieve as well. So that's another piece in the pie.
Yeah. Because we, I mean, we know oestrogen with the whole reproductive system, but oestrogen affects how your dopamine works. And as you reduce your oestrogen, you reduce your dopamine and yeah, ADHD symptoms can really increase and it's why boys get diagnosed and relate to women getting diagnosed. It's, and again, that's all this stuff around. The politics of Psychiatry in the history of psychiatry is a whole different sphere. But what was it you just triggered? Something that I want to say no, I forgot what it was probably about memory. Oh, yeah. It was Oh, God.
Right. Good, competent. So Sarah McKay is a kiwi neuro neuro scientist. And she has the female brain, something like that in her book. And she highlights this fact as well. Plus, it's in a whole bunch of research that women who have baby brains, yeah. And women who have brain fog or perimenopause, if you take them our way from the crying baby, baby, and the toddler and the need to do X, Y, and Z and all of the things or the work the family, whatever it is, if you take them out of their everyday environment, you've put them in a nice little room and maybe give them a cup of tea and some quiet and do cognition tests. They're unchanged. And yeah, so if there is ever any change, it's very hard and it's short lived, and it's reversible. But broadly, the perception of brain fog is more affected by the context rather than what's happening in your brain. And, in perimenopause, it's the same. And when there is change, it recovers post menopause. So it's that transitional thing. It's the attitude piano. If people are old enough to remember a doll on a radio, they haven't quite got it on the station to get it back on the stage. Oh, great, I'm back. But I think that's a really, really important thing for people to remember: you'd have to rage to flog yourself every day and work like crazy. Just rest and nourish and care for yourself. And if you are feeling brain fog, stop, rest. It's the best thing you can do to brighten the activity and discord in your brain. Actually, there was a researcher, I think it was Brinton, who described perimenopause. Now Alyssa Moscone who does brain research and a lot on perimenopause, said that menopause or perimenopause is a time of neuronal discord. So it's just kind of like your brain at some wild jazz concert, freelancing, you know, just kind of all over the cacophony. But we want to Symphony again, kind of sound nice and coordinated, and it will get back there. So practice, sharing it more doesn't necessarily help.
Rest, and I think even less, do I even know.
Emma: Absolutely. It's really unusual. Just bring everything in a little bit and just cocoon a little bit if you need to think about it. As I say, what can you get rid of? What can you defer? What can you delegate, and have a way down, do some yoga, or meditation for five minutes, but it doesn't have to be some transcendental life changing for our meditation, it is brief. And the other thing I like about that, when I used to run, co facilitate resilient weekends for the Cancer Council for healthcare professionals in oncology and palliative care, was three days and we'd always say, by doing these relaxation techniques, when you feel well, when you don't feel strong, when you are in conflict at work, and you just phrase or don't know what to say or think you might hurt physically hit your boss or something, though that skill that you have that you've trained, allows you to pause, pause for a second. That's it. And then you can respond, not react. And it's time now. So in perimenopause and menopause, having a routine practice of 510 minutes. It just helps when those times come up that you can just go up. That's okay.
Jane: Research shows it's about like, doing it more often and small. It doesn't seem like you say, five minutes a day. It's just beautiful. Even just out on your patio. Just spending some time with yourself looking at your cup of tea at the colour of a leaf for five minutes, and you are setting yourself up for a less reactive experience. Yeah, and there's some nice research. I think Japan and Japan will make sense around the benefits of walking in nature for perimenopausal women. Yeah, so it's not just the forest bathing, which is awesome. And there's lots of evidence around the benefits of being in nature. And certainly that's been a key therapeutic intervention for myself over the years. But specifically some on perimenopause, a woman which I thought was awesome. And showing that going for a walk in nature is so much more effective, like reducing your cortisol and your blood pressure and all of those things. Then walking in the gym. Like, I live in a really cold environment. I'll walk in the gym, we finally like it on the weekend. It was so windy, there's nowhere to walk outside because I got hit by a gantry. So you know, there are times that walking inside is totally appropriate. But when you can go out and stick your face in the sun, listen to the
grounding as well, isn't it? It's like we're in contact with your part. Nature, you can remember that you're not all this stuff that's going on in your head, that you're like a human being and get a bit of context and get a bit of perspective.
Emma: Yeah.Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's also really helpful for people who, when you say, do a bit of yoga, Nidra or meditation, it's like, oh, I can't do that. Yeah, no, no, you can't. But what can be easier is to go for a walk in the bush, you can have a moving meditation and moving quietly in practice, that doesn't have to be, again, sitting cross legged, or whatever. You can just observe as you go through the bush, just look at stuff. Don't go through your shopping list. Don't go through your chores. Just look at stuff. And enjoy being in that space and listening. See if you can hear any birds or whatever. Yeah, it's really important to know that you don't have to lie still most of the time, it still just doesn't work for some of us.
Absolutely, absolutely. I found Mike because I like to swim. And that's really helpful for me, it's getting my body in the sea. And just that, for me, is a real grounding practice. I feel that I feel like I'm part of something bigger than me. And he had that ability which a lot of people say is the reason why they drink. Yeah, which is really the body wanting to ground it out. Yeah. And it's, yeah, that's a I mean, I like the ocean. But that's what I get when I go into the board. I get a little bit euphoric at first, it's like, oh, I'm back. Yeah, I'm excited. And then I just zone. Yeah. Which is great. Yes. And, oh, Jane, I was gonna ask you about different types of rest. Could you tell us a little bit about that?
Jane: Well, I mean, there's a couple of different ways of answering that, I guess. You can have physical rest. You can have mental rest, you can have spiritual rest or restoration, psychological, emotional. So really looking at the different aspects of your life and where it needs to come, where it needs soothing, where it needs nourishment. So it's not rest isn't passive. It isn't just lying down, but just like dancing, it's also awesome. So it is consciousness. And I've mentioned yoga nidra or mindfulness in body scans a few times in yoga nidra in particular, because it can be so efficient. And that can be really great when people are quite sure, but the thing that they want to be doing, and you can get so nicely soothed in a really quick period of time. And I think that is really helpful. And now I've gone off on a tangent, so different types of risk. So different types of practices and different needs. But you do need to create some space somehow to really reflect and think what are my needs? Yeah, and not being passive. That's so it's a conscious, intentional desire to self care through resting. I mean, when you look at kids, they'll run around with our limited, limited energy. And then they'll stop the animals from running around and play and hunt and do stuff at play. And then they'll have a lie down, and then they'll get up again, and they'll play again, and kids will do the same. And we've, we've forgotten how to rest.
Emma: And you can see it even in culture, like even today with my kid not being able to get into school because of artistic burnout. You can see the clinicians, the medical professional, not just panicking, how can we get her in? It's like, No, it's not about getting her in. It's about her recognizing that she can't push through.
Jane: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's, you know, I 100% in the team, move, white knuckle knuckle down, push through, I'll be fine. Once I get this task done. Everything will be different once I finish that. Yes, that's exactly it. We're desperately trying to fix it by doing that. It's the opposite. Yeah.
Emma: Yep. Yeah. Do less, do less. Just don't just don't do it. What's the Nike thing? Just do it? Just don't do it. Yeah, just leave it today.
Jane: Well, so that is, as I said, at perimenopause, there's a huge, it's a huge transition. So huge physical transition to say nothing of the social rest of your life. And we need to respect that. And give us some space and acknowledge that it is difficult. It's challenging. Any transition can bring up stuff, whether it's a positive one or not one that you're invited to. And so to honour that process, now, if you want to know people do have parent menopause parties, so 12 months after the last period, I'll have a party, you can do that. Or you can not reference no rule. Just don't organise something. But like I said, I didn't, but I liked the idea of it. Because, like, I just didn't think of it. But I like the idea of acknowledging Yeah, that's something 100% I agree. And it's a really big mean, and, and you look at the times where we have as women, big transition. So around adolescence, where everything's kind of waking up around some of just cyclic things, neurotransmitters change at different times in our menstrual cycle. And then if you have any hormonal conditions like PCOS or are affected by hormones like Endo, then that's another challenge. And then the transition of pregnancy and postpartum each time or pregnancy, even if it didn't result in a baby for whatever reason, but still a transition and a whole associated range of things. And then I think perimenopause is just a kind of very dramatic last transition. Okay, let's bring it all together. Yeah, let's make this drag seven years.
But then it's kind of pretty stable. And you've got 40 years ahead of you, you need to make it good. And you need to have some energy for it, and you need to love it. Like it's your life. That's why you need to love it. Why would you want to do something else? And that's such a big challenge for us. It's like, I think as a woman, so many of the women that I work with and you know, it's been a journey for me is that, you know, that self love learning to do that. It's okay that you can create an environment that nurtures and excites you, that you get permission to do that. Acknowledging Of course, the privilege During the difficulty that people go through, but that's, you know, often people, it's very difficult for people to find that space or to feel that they have agency sometimes. But like you say, I think it's noticing that small things that we can do that can make such a difference.
Emma: Yeah, and thank you for saying that, because everything I've said is wrapped up in privilege. So me too, so really acknowledging that. So much is difficult. And some for women, they may have some really difficult years ahead of them yet, or for a long time yet. And that's when this is even more important. Yeah. Because they have bigger demands and challenges and biases and poverty and abuse or racism, homophobia, whatever it is that they're being hit with. So finding a little pocket, that is just you. Coming back to you finding a place metaphorically inside that you can just come back to is your safe place, I think is even more important to do.
And particularly as well with women who are in the role of carers as well, like that, being able to find a bit of space, I was listening to Christy Forbes, one of my favourite autistic ADHD advocates and educators. And she was talking about just finding, you know, with all the chaos that might be going on, you know, finding that few minutes to just sit and knit for knitting sake, or, you know, just something small. That means that you are not doing something for others.
Jane: Yeah, and you did a great example, just getting in design. And again, that's the kind of meditative thing that's designed. do not think about anything else, just get that rhythm. It all kind of helps. Yes. And if so then, yes, carers have enormous demands on them. And they're not supported, either kind of individually, socially, and certainly not at a government level. They carry so much for society. And, yeah, just tiny pockets. I think it's really important.
Emma: That's it and little dopamine hits as well. It's great for when you're stopping drinking or taking a break from drinking, because you get this every time you stitch together a little dopamine hit.
Jane: Well, that's a transition thing. Because, yes, you need some dopamine, absolutely. But also be mindful of if you're then addicted to dopamine. So it's just like, another hitting another hit another hit, what can I do, I can jump out of a plane. Cool. Now I'm gonna do this cool. And it's like, well, that's not sustainable. You're gonna run out of all the things. So if you do big, repeated dopamine hits, it kind of gets a bit numb to that as well. So it's nice to spread them out a little bit. And that I think, was, oh, gosh, I didn't know that. The author's name so it's not even a matter of me forgetting enough just not learn to it but started a started about 6 million books in my bedroom scattered around, but one of them is called dopamine nation and the thing about
Emma: Yeah, brilliant. It's brilliant. Yeah. And we dopamine stacks. I'm going to do this in the morning, and then that at lunch, and then that in the afternoon, and then I'm going to get this awesome dinner. And that's like, that's a very big day again. Yeah, it's driving and you're just getting your hit from something else. And then the days when you're not doing that become very grand. So yeah, there are days where it's just awesome. 24/7 Yeah, not a lot but there are but spreading it out a bit can be really helpful too, because it makes it sustained and gentle.
So, Jane, thank you for that. I have loved this conversation.
Jane: I know. And I'm so glad that Megan Susan is here as well. Watch them later in the week.
Emma: We’re also talking about non-dieting. And how do we keep that side of things? How do we keep our family safe from all of those pressures that we have as women as well. But I wanted you to, for me, this series is the live part of the series running alongside the launch of my Aussie Alcohol Experiment, which is for women in midlife, who are wanting to change their relationship with drinking. And they wanted to bring on a group of powerful change made king women who are talking about things that matter in midlife and offering a service to women in midlife, that isn't about fixing them. It is about changing. And with that in
mind, I'm so pleased that you came on and talked about positivity, the importance of breath, the different life stages, the chemical side of things, a lot of which was interesting and very new to me as well. And I wondered, I'm sure that people will want to work with you. I wondered, would you be kind enough to share what you do , what you offer, what your business is? And how can people find you?
Jane: Yeah, okay. So I work clinically, and very part time, so I can see women. For consultations, I work online, and my website is the same handle. It's Jane Hutchins Dotco, which is also my handle on Instagram. Not on Facebook, because it won't let me update my page. But that's a different story. But I also have a course which I'm launching next month, which is called the rest intensive. So it's not intensive, as in very, very hard. But rather, it's kind of contained, and it's for a short period of time. So it's four weeks. And the goal is really to just feel less overwhelmed, less brain fog, have some more energy, and be aware of where you can really support yourself more. So I look at or we will look at some of the reasons you might be feeling like that.
Because, you know, I can teach someone how to meditate. But if they've got growth, iron deficiency anaemia, they're still going to be tired, you know, so we need to make sure we've cleared what I look at. We'll be discussing, I should say, How to nourish for rest. And I'm glad you mentioned Susan in there too, because it's not around. Here's a super duper prescriptive menopausal diet you have to go on and it's not brutal and it's not punishing. It's about nourishing all aspects of our being.
Yeah, and we believe most people are aware that if you're gonna go and do a triathlon, you have to nourish that activity, so you can do it. But we also have to be nourished to rest. Yeah, so talking about some of that. And remember, or have an opportunity to play around with a number of different ways to or techniques for resting, different meditation techniques, different ninja, for instance, and sleep. Really need to snake and the snake is disturbed in perimenopause because a hot flashes, but not always, yeah, cause someone snoring in the bed because they've so busy mythmaking in their head. Right?
Emma: My sister and I occasionally, I haven't done it for a while, which is great. So a good reflection on both of us would say, I think we should just ring each other. Since we're awake. Just have an uninterrupted conversation. So both of us are much better at that. But also, is it because your blood sugar is really low because you've been starving yourself and now you get a cortisol peak at 3am. So looking at all the things that we can do to support sleep, and what we can do if we can't actually sleep at that time. And so we can still rest so just get across part of the problem, isn't it but we get so angry about not resting. It's like it's kind of creating a problem it's trying to solve. It's so interesting. And then funnily enough, I've got an ad tomorrow who's actually coming on Dr. Oliviia, And she's talking about the impact of oestrogen on breathing and sleep and interesting and all kinds of. So, again, I
I look forward to that, I think, as a snorer.
But I think, is there anything else on that course because I'm listening to your cause and just thinking, Gosh, how many new women that I work with in the world could do with doing your course and myself included?
Jane: It's foundational. So I think anything else it's like, yeah, and that's why I started here. Because I'm really interested in cardiovascular health, apparently, couples as well, I could do that. That's a no, you just have to stop first. Everyone needs to take a moment and hold themselves and nourishing rest and have some self care and some compassion. And on that, then you can build whether or not you have to address anything else that's happening. But this is just foundational. And moving. You know, as I'm sure Susan, and Meg will say, in a couple of days, we become lost, how to trust ourselves in knowing what to eat. We've lost, knowing how to rest and how to care for ourselves. And we've made it this outrageously complicated thing. Yeah. And it's not. And sometimes it's really deceptive. And sometimes in clinical, you know, I'll say, Okay, well, let's stop all those things that you're doing and just do these few things. Yeah. Yeah. And we have to trust that, and we have to trust ourselves.
Emma: Yes. And it's hard sometimes to do that, isn't it? Because by suppressing our needs, we disconnect from our needs. And so it's coming back to, you know, how do we start being able to access our needs, again, from a place? We've been suppressing them for so long?
Well, and you know, if you're, if you're a mom with young children, you have to suppress them. Like, it's a bit, it's a bit delusional to suggest that she doesn't to some degree. It's just whether or not you get out of that habit. Yeah. And of course I said, it's four weeks, but there will be an extension after it. And we'll have the opportunity to talk as a group as well. And some closed group work and me chatting in a bit more structured way, but not too structured, because that's not my style. So there will be the benefit. Like yeah, well, I think the benefit of community I think that is a really strong aspect of any learning and change having that support. Yeah, yeah. Other people do the same thing. That means everything
Does. Alright, so what have you got the details of that course? Is that on your? On your
Instagram at the moment?
Jane: No. Okay. How about I put it on? Perfect. I've had to play around. I had to play around with the dates because I have to just do my final submission for my PhD and it's been approved. Yay for me. I'm done. Oh, my God. We just do it just happened to him stream is I mean, who doesn't? I feel really underdressed that I don't have streamers in. Because it took
longer, as always unexpected. I've had to put the course back. And I tried. I actually tried to force myself to do it at the time I wanted. So again, it's just a little bit hypocritical. So take a little risk, and then limit it in June. And so yeah, I will get it back up on my Instagram and it's on my website. But yeah, so just literally this weekend. I've said no, you're gonna have to change those dates.
Emma: Yeah, no, good. I'm glad you're doing that. That's exactly what you should be doing living. Yeah, no big talk about. I have to do it. I wish I was on but I'm really, really excited about doing it. So that makes it harder. I just want to do it for a time. Yeah, I need a Lie down.
Lie down and then do it. Yeah. Beautiful. So you'll send me all of that information. So when this goes into the pot cast, I'll put all that information in the show notes. But for now, I will put your Instagram in there and people can access you from there and your website as well. If you just tend to go straight to me, that'd be amazing. All right, thank you so much for having me on. It's been really, really lovely chatting.
