Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.494)
Hello there! I've just got my glasses on, let me see, it's nearly 11.30 here in Berlin. Don't know why I'm doing that weird accent. Okay, let's bring Tanya and Chris on. So we've got Chris McAllister joining us, his Instagram name is the trans comedian.

and my lovely co-host.

speaker-0 (00:40.782)
That's inviting Tanya and then I'll invite Chris.

speaker-0 (00:58.324)
Menopause as well and invite Chris.

speaker-1 (01:09.516)
Yay!

speaker-0 (01:10.082)
There's Okay, now we're about to everyone Hey.

speaker-1 (01:22.006)
Hello.

speaker-0 (01:23.662)
How are you? Good, thank you. Nice to meet you.

speaker-1 (01:24.984)
Good, how are you?

Nice to you.

speaker-0 (01:30.06)
I've invited Tanya, I'll see if she's... I'll just grab her on as well.

speaker-1 (01:34.478)
Sure.

speaker-0 (01:36.014)
It's always a little, we always have a little bit of fun at the beginning of these.

speaker-1 (01:42.592)
Yes.

speaker-0 (01:43.822)
Trying to get people to join. Are you in Sydney at the moment?

speaker-1 (01:49.656)
I am, I am in Sydney, I'm very close to Sydney airport actually.

speaker-0 (01:53.75)
very good. you, did you do the Melbourne Comedy Festival?

speaker-1 (01:58.594)
I did, yeah. It was great. You're in Melbourne, you? Yes, yeah, it was great. It was really good. Good fun. Good to be part of it.

speaker-0 (02:00.162)
it.

speaker-0 (02:03.501)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (02:11.0)
Did you get enough people? Did you get good people?

speaker-1 (02:14.422)
Yeah, yeah. I had some really lovely crowds and met lots of people and had some good conversations afterwards.

speaker-0 (02:22.542)
Cool, very cool. Were you doing it, one man show?

speaker-1 (02:26.031)
Yeah, yeah my solo show yeah, yeah

speaker-0 (02:32.558)
I'm just going try and get Tanya again. there she is, got her.

speaker-1 (02:40.001)
yes.

speaker-0 (02:40.814)
Well thank you very much for joining us, I'll wait while the Instagram does its nonsense. It's really lovely to have you here.

speaker-1 (02:49.122)
My pleasure, thank you.

speaker-0 (02:50.914)
Thanks for doing this with us. think it will be really helpful to chat with you. While I'm just still trying to get Tanya.

speaker-1 (03:05.686)
Yeah, it's tricky getting everyone on at the same time. is.

speaker-0 (03:10.934)
It's always fun. And I don't mean fun like good times.

speaker-1 (03:19.704)
positive spin.

speaker-0 (03:21.442)
There we go.

speaker-0 (03:26.614)
Maybe we're not allowed for.

speaker-1 (03:30.266)
speaker-0 (03:30.99)
I don't know. We'll see. I'll see her poke. I'll see. While we're waiting for her, would it be okay for you to tell us a little bit about yourself?

speaker-1 (03:46.03)
Sure. So, my name's Chris. I live in Sydney. I am a comedian. And someone's waiting for me to say something very thought provoking. God.

speaker-0 (03:59.886)
No pressure.

speaker-1 (04:03.694)
I'm transmask. What that means to me, difference between transmask and transman is mainly the haircuts.

speaker-0 (04:16.238)
Could you repeat that word that you just said?

speaker-1 (04:18.286)
I said it, the difference between transmask and trans man to me is mainly the haircuts. Did you hear that?

speaker-0 (04:28.45)
The last word I keep missing, I don't know why.

speaker-1 (04:30.414)
The haircuts. Haircuts. Yeah.

speaker-0 (04:33.768)
Cut. Got it.

Are you originally from the UK?

speaker-1 (04:41.006)
Yes, yeah. Thank you. It's the haircuts. Yeah. Tanya says I am here.

speaker-0 (04:48.878)
I can't get-

speaker-1 (04:50.338)
Well, she's not on camera, but she's here.

speaker-0 (04:53.398)
she's here in spirit.

speaker-1 (04:55.374)
Well, no, she's here. She's on the phone. She's messaging saying I'm here.

speaker-0 (05:00.856)
I can see that as well, but I'm just trying to get a face-off.

Tanya, can you, you might have to do your questions then through the chat.

It's such a professional thing here. Wonderful.

plot.

speaker-1 (05:21.674)
Yes, not just hairstyles but haircuts because transmasked people get their hair cut by lesbians. I'm not sure what trans men do. think trans men just cut their own hair.

speaker-0 (05:36.522)
It's

It's interesting, I have a, son is a trans guy.

speaker-1 (05:48.034)
Who cuts his hair?

speaker-0 (05:50.542)
A mixture of himself.

speaker-1 (05:53.368)
Sing?

speaker-0 (05:57.998)
By hairdresser and then some other random person that comes to our house who's a mate of his.

speaker-1 (06:09.176)
Yeah, see I'm on the money with that one.

speaker-0 (06:13.582)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it was all costing. He also really likes to have his hair blonde. So that again, that's like...

He's having to pace themselves now.

speaker-1 (06:26.894)
He sounds very stylish.

speaker-0 (06:28.43)
He's very stylish. He is very stylish. I can't get on. Try one more time.

speaker-1 (06:42.454)
No, I, I make

I like to make jokes about this kind of stuff because... there she is! That's all good!

speaker-0 (06:52.389)
How are going to have to ask questions and be part of the conversation in the chat? It's going to make your fingers very stiff. That would have been really hard because I am the world's slowest checkster.

speaker-1 (06:59.725)
in

speaker-0 (07:09.518)
My children always make fun of me because I am just... it takes me like half an hour to type like two sentences so yeah. Well done! It's a fun time. Yay! I was getting quite panicked in the background because I'm like, I am here, I am here. Please, please let me in. I am the type of autistic who doesn't get the joke and it's embarrassing for me. I get it like two days later so...

speaker-1 (07:39.2)
It was gonna be super awkward without you, Tanya.

speaker-0 (07:41.39)
going to be a very awkward conversation between me and Chris while I miss the joke. Well, we're here. Welcome, both of you. Lovely to have you both. Thank you so much for, first of all, answering my DM, Chris. You know, when you send things out to people, you never know quite how it will

received. But I'm a big fan. I've been following you since I saw a reel of yours. It was a few years ago where you were trying to explain pronouns using coffee and tea. at that stage, we had just really, we're kind of in the middle of our trans journey with my son. And he was trying to explain

pronouns to his grandparents and I saw it and I thought, wow, that is just such a great way of explaining it. And then I also, you had like a really like viral post on I can tell and that was just such an amazing movement as well. And I just really love meeting

people who are in the gender diverse trans space because, you know, a lot of times, especially for our children, representation really, really counts out there in social media. And to have somebody that's just really open about their journey and does it in such a clever and funny way, it's just, yeah, it's just really amazing. So, yeah, thank you so much.

speaker-1 (09:37.858)
Did you show the grandparents the analogy, the T analogy?

speaker-0 (09:43.598)
I did, I did. they're slowly getting it. I think it's harder for my eldest, who is non-binary, for the grandparents to get the they and them. My son goes by he, he, him. So I think it's easier for them to get the he, him. But I think sometimes for grandparents, the they, them is a bit harder because they...

they keep on thinking about it more in a plural way. But yeah, it's great. I love the bit where you said, when someone says, didn't ask for sugar in this, you don't say, well, you don't look like the type of person who doesn't take sugar. And I just, yeah, I love that bit. It was really,

speaker-1 (10:35.416)
be funny. Well, that video came about because of things that people had said to me, the real things like, I'll try but I might not remember and things like that. And so it was the intention of that video is for people like family members who want to want to do the right thing, but might be a bit scared. And so that so the grandparents are, yeah, they're the target audience for this.

for that analogy because I posted that and obviously you get some people saying, well, you know, they push back on it and they go, well, blah, blah, blah, I'm not gonna do that. And it's like, well, this video isn't for you. This is actually for people that love their trans or non-binary family members or friends and want to be able to affirm them. And this is a way to sort of get around that real awkwardness of like, oh, I don't wanna get it wrong. So I just won't even say any pronouns.

And if you're gonna do that, then you'll never get used to they, them. Because they, them was clunky for me when I first started using it. Because it didn't make sense to me, because it felt like a plural. now it's only because I've used it so much that it sort of sinks in. And so with my daughter, who's 10, when we read a book together and I say they, she gets all excited. And I'm like, no, it's actually two people.

speaker-1 (12:04.206)
So her first thought is that must mean it's a non-binary person in the story. So it's just getting used to words and different meanings for words and it's the same as any new word that we introduced to the English language like selfie. Like we weren't saying selfie 20 years ago but now everyone knows what a selfie is.

speaker-0 (12:27.436)
Yeah. And you know, it is clunky at first. I remember when my, when my eldest, Pam, that is non-binary. Yeah. It felt really awkward to say they, them, but it's just something we use in our family now. Sometimes we get it wrong and they went up, oops, sorry. And then just, you know, but they don't mind because they know we're trying. So.

speaker-1 (12:50.31)
Yeah, and I think it's, I think there's so much discourse online about how trans or non-binary people are going to bite your head off if you get it wrong. And so people then just become fearful to try anything. And it's, it's not the case. Like if, I think mostly if you can see someone's trying and it's an honest mistake, you, you're going to be fine with it. So yeah, I think it's.

Yeah, there's just been a lot of stuff online that's just not representative of actually what really happens within real families. Someone's saying there are non-binary kids books. Yes. Yes. There are. We've got He, and They. it's called Jacob's School Play with He, and They. Cool. It's really good.

speaker-0 (13:29.326)
Thanks.

speaker-0 (13:41.208)
That's great. yeah, I often forget like how, like, I think the people around us, are very accepting. And I think New Zealand in general are pretty accepting of, you know, the LGT plus community and trans people. And my children and I, did have a pod

We spoke about everything that was going on in our family, but then you sometimes forget that there are people outside of your world who perhaps are not as accepting or really struggle with this type of stuff as well. So having books like gender-affirming books and things like that are really important as well.

speaker-1 (14:32.942)
I love what you just said because mostly people focus too much about what's going on and that's not part of their own life and then they forget that actually there are people that support them but you're saying the other way around that you have such a beautiful family dynamic that you forget that other people are not supportive. I love that.

speaker-0 (14:55.48)
Yeah, yeah. It actually just shocked me. We used to, right at the beginning when our family had our podcast, which has stopped now because there was just so much people out there that I really felt like I needed to protect my children. But, you know, we had this parade, well, a few years ago now, this gathering in one of our town squares, and there was this really beautiful trans police officer.

who was there and he was just being so lovely with the public and just talking about his journey. And we posted it on our TikTok channel. And I was just genuinely felt shocked by how people had a problem with that. whenever I see your videos, it just seems...

so lovely to me, but I can imagine that you might get a fair bit of, you know, pushback and perhaps not such lovely comments from some of the stuff that you post.

speaker-1 (16:06.548)
Yeah, I do. they've become really few and far between now. Definitely since the I Can Tell campaign. I think it's because my content just sort of gone onto a different algorithm. Because I see other trans people posting online and then the comments are terrible. And I'm like, wow, my videos don't seem to be traveling in the same algorithmic arena.

Yeah, I think when I did the I can tell video, it started reaching people that don't even normally engage in trans stuff at all. Like, I was getting messages from people saying that other people were sending them the video and those people were just kind of indifferent to trans lives. They weren't for or against. It was just not not in their world and that they were sending them. So somehow it just got to a different algorithm that

didn't even go to people that were just looking up trans stuff negatively or positively. So I do get the odd one. But yeah, it kind of surprises me when I do now because I'm like, oh, they found this video. How did they do that? So anyway, I kind of like to curate a nice space. So sometimes I'll engage with those comments if it seems like this person

is displaying some humanity but if it's just like just someone being aggressive or name calling or you know something like that then i'll just delete the comment because i don't want trans people to come to my my my videos and then look at the comments and then feel like it's not a good space to be in so i just get rid of it

speaker-0 (17:57.218)
Yeah.

Yeah, good on you.

speaker-1 (18:03.16)
But I haven't had to do with that with the I Can Tell video really at all. Like it's pretty much like 99%. It's been all positive. I broke the internet.

speaker-0 (18:16.686)
You

speaker-1 (18:18.862)
In a good way, in a good way.

speaker-0 (18:21.204)
is the, because I'm quite fresh to knowing you, what is the I can tell thing?

speaker-1 (18:26.414)
Well, I had been posting videos for a while, for a few months, and I've been doing this thing where I was posting a video every day online about being trans, like a trans joke. And I was getting this comment, I can tell you, well, I can tell you're still a woman. But I would get I can tell you're still a man in the comment directly underneath. And so I posted that one day and then just spontaneously people who had been

following me for a while started saying, I can tell that you're a lovely person or I can tell that I like watching your videos, things like that. And so it gave me this idea to, thank you. can tell Chris is an awesome comedian. It gave me an idea to just post, like start a hashtag.

allyship campaign where people could say I can tell and just say something lovely instead because it was after Trump got inaugurated he declared there was only two genders was getting lots of comments saying you don't exist there's only two genders blah blah blah and and a lot of trans people online I could see were feeling very isolated and that they didn't have any allyship or supporters and that they were feeling very alone but that hadn't been my experience because I've been posting videos for a few months and I've been getting largely a lot of lovely

comments and interactions and community. I wanted to, so I was like, that doesn't sit, that doesn't seem right to me that more people are against than for trans people. don't think that's the case at all. I think it's more people are for or indifferent, like live and let live than actively against. And so I wanted to show that with this. So I did, and I posted that video one night to invite people to say, can tell and then say something lovely or affirming to a trans person. And within an hour, there were 300 comments.

And then I couldn't keep up. was trying to respond to the comments, but more were coming in than I could respond to. And then I had to go to bed because it was nine o'clock in my bedtime. And I woke up the next morning and there were 3,000 comments. And they were all really lovely, beautiful comments. And I couldn't find a single mean comment at all. And it was incredible. It people all over the world, like all over Europe, Pakistan.

speaker-1 (20:40.62)
America, Abu Dhabi, Canada, New Zealand, Billy, he's like Brazil, like all over the place where we're messaging in and stuff. then to this day, there's over a hundred thousand comments. So, and the video has been seen over a 4 million times.

speaker-0 (21:01.016)
That's so cool. Now you're talking about it. That's so cool. Because it wasn't scary. It still can be quite a scary time. I know for my... I was at that time quite scared for my son. things like that are just lovely.

speaker-1 (21:03.529)
California.

speaker-1 (21:21.816)
A lot of, and you're not alone, have had lots of messages from parents of trans kids saying that they had felt like their kid was growing up in a world that didn't want them and they felt very isolated. But then looking at the comments section they realised that that's not the case at all.

speaker-0 (21:40.812)
It's just it might be my son was bullied very, badly for being transferred a very long time at school. It was very bad for him. But he's he's kind of recovered and he's recovering. And but it can feel when you're in a space where that is happening to you. And he would he would say to me that 25 percent of his school were actively.

being horrible to him on a daily basis because he was different and he wasn't very good at keeping his mouth shut and his head down so he became even more of a target. listening to that beautiful and when I'm listening to you Tanya I'm like that sounds so lovely because obviously in our house it is like that but for him in the world it hasn't been and which I was kind of interested as well because you

a performer and you used comedy and performing and for him that's been one of his places of safety. Yep. And so I guess that was one of the things I was really interested in talking to you about was to understand kind of like what your journey was around that and because again being a comedian is like such a vulnerable scary thing to do in my mind because you're putting yourself out there all the time and you're like

And you might get a room of people who don't vibe with you anymore. I'd love to hear from your perspective how that side of things develop for you and what it gives you, if you're willing.

speaker-1 (23:23.534)
Yeah. I'll just go back to the bullying thing for a second, because I was bullied as well at high school. I had a great time in primary school. I was friends with all the boys. I was able to play football on the team with the boys. And then when I got to high school, everything changed. Because high school suddenly, if you're not acting

speaker-0 (23:33.23)
Mm.

speaker-1 (23:51.564)
the way you're supposed to then you're different and you're sticking out. And I was quite an androgynous looking person. And I didn't know I didn't feel like I was a boy. I didn't really feel anything. But and I, but I obviously didn't look like the typical feminine girl. And so I was bullied for, yeah, looking like a boy.

Not that we had any, there was no discussion of transness at the time. It was just not conforming to what people expect of a girl. So yeah, I didn't even have any ideas about my sexuality or anything at the time either. So it wasn't like I was outwardly doing anything that really garnered any attention. was just, just wasn't, just didn't look like what they expected. Yeah.

speaker-0 (24:48.076)
not being typical.

speaker-1 (24:53.11)
Yeah.

I don't know, it's really, it's, it's where does like actually being trans or just not conforming to this strict idea of gender that we

speaker-0 (25:08.066)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (25:10.988)
Yeah, so that's an interesting thing to think about because that means that any kid, like a cis kid, if they're conforming to the idea of gender binary, then they will get bullied as well for that. So it's not even just about being trans, it's just about not looking like a girl or a

speaker-0 (25:27.767)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (25:32.334)
That's exactly right. Yeah.

speaker-1 (25:35.374)
So yeah, how old is your son?

speaker-0 (25:39.67)
It's about 10.18.

speaker-1 (25:41.302)
Okay, so he's out of that situation now. He's nearly out.

speaker-0 (25:43.918)
He's nearly out of it, yeah. Yeah, he's doing his last year of school now. And it's much better for him now, he's in the top grade. But even, yeah, he had to leave for a bit and go to a bit of an alternative school for a while, just to recover from what happened. He's gone back now, but yeah, it's been really tough for him. It's been real hard to witness. But he's like the coolest kid. He's got a lot of things to...

He's got a of things that he does and he's got a nice group of friends as well outside of school. So lucky in that way.

speaker-1 (26:21.058)
That's really cool.

speaker-0 (26:25.486)
Not living a, not living a non, like it's not an unhappy story, if you know what I mean. Like I always think that people are like, when you talk about things like bullying or stuff like that, people are always like, oh, you know, it's a sad, this is a tragedy. And it's like, well, it's kind of, there's sad things about it. There's some really hard things about it, but there's as many joyful, cool things about it. Yeah, like not the bullying itself, but it's we're not living out this tragedy. Really cool things happening too.

speaker-1 (26:47.136)
Yeah.

Yeah.

speaker-0 (26:54.625)
at the same time.

speaker-1 (26:56.332)
Yeah, well it sounds like, yeah, I mean it's worse if it's bullying on top of a not a good home situation, but it sounds like it's got really loving, supportive family. So that's massive, a massive deal in that situation. It's not like I didn't have an unsupportive family, but I was so embarrassed about being bullied that I never said anything to my mom.

speaker-0 (27:19.746)
Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-1 (27:22.946)
My older sister knew a little bit because she was in the same school but then she left so that was... Yeah.

speaker-0 (27:29.336)
We didn't know until it got really quite bad, think. didn't, we didn't, because kids don't want to say, they? Bless him.

speaker-1 (27:32.236)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (27:38.574)
No. Yeah. But yeah, it's and it's like every single school has a bullying issue. It's across the board and it's something. Yeah, I don't even know how. Yeah, that's a big thing for my I've got my daughter who's 10. Yeah. So she's like less than two years away from going to high school. Yeah. I'm just like, oh my goodness. I mean.

speaker-0 (27:40.355)
Thanks.

speaker-1 (28:08.76)
She might be one of the bullies.

speaker-0 (28:10.286)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (28:12.75)
That's my biggest fear is making sure she's not a bully.

speaker-0 (28:16.042)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

speaker-1 (28:20.046)
Yes, so comedy, I started comedy back in 2018. I just did a performance, but it was way before I'd even considered transitioning. I've been out as a lesbian for years. So yeah, I just wanted to try, try doing, I'd done a bit of performance when I was a kid, but I hadn't done anything for years. I guess I'd had the confidence knocked out of me from high school. But yeah, I gave it a go and

speaker-0 (28:33.997)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (28:48.974)
sort of dabbled with it and then for a year or so and then we had the pandemic happen and then it wasn't long after the pandemic when I had started exploring gender and I'd gotten married to my wife who it was the first time that anyone had ever called me handsome and she saw like a masculinity in me that I hadn't really I guess I was too

I guess after the school thing, it's not like I was actively going super feminine, but I wasn't looking at that. The masculinity. Anyway, so yeah, she sort of made it a really like safe space to just explore that and know that she was going to love me no matter what. And also that she celebrated masculinity that she saw.

And then I, and I was trying to impress her when we first started seeing each other. So I got back into doing some more comedy and stuff. So, yeah. And then I transitioned or I started my transition and then I've been hosting a show, producing a show here in Sydney called Queers of Joy, which is a night that celebrates trans and gender diverse artists and platforms artists. And so I've been hosting that since December, 2020.

and I do a bit of comedy and that like just as a host and just over the years I've just been like it's comedy is something that I obsessively think about I love the structure of it telling jokes I find it a really I mean that's humor is definitely how I handle life and so I got back into it properly about a year and a half ago I

did a show at the Sydney Fringe and I did like a half an hour set and I'd, longest one I'd ever done and it went really well and so I was like, yeah, that's definitely what I wanna be doing. And just being really silly about being trans because all I'd seen, it took me so long to figure it out that I was trans. One, because I thought that if you were trans, you had to be hating yourself.

speaker-1 (31:09.55)
might be able to leave the house like completely crippled with anxiety and self-hatred that you couldn't even like have a job and be completely depressed because that's all I'd seen in media and so I just I was like am I making it up like so yeah because I felt this really I felt very incongruent like with the looking at my body going that doesn't like these boobs do not look like my boobs they look like someone else's boobs have been stuck on my body

like that but it wasn't to the point of like I'm so stressed out about it I can't deal with life and so I it felt like I was making it up but I went yeah I sort of went down the route I went to a counselor and talked about that and talked about how it felt like you know painting a beard on my face because I was doing a bit of like drag kinging

And she said that's gender euphoria. I'd never heard of that term before.

speaker-0 (32:10.114)
I've not heard of that either.

speaker-1 (32:11.982)
Have you not heard of it? Yeah, so it's the euphoric feeling of affirming your own gender. so it's something that we're looking at more because this focus so far has been so much on dysphoria when actually a lot of trans people don't feel this acute depression of dysphoria.

they just feel the euphoria or they feel the euphoria more than they do the dysphoria. So yeah, think maybe a lot of yeah, so

speaker-0 (32:42.348)
Yeah, right.

speaker-1 (32:52.268)
Yeah, so that's how it was for me. I wanted to tell jokes about being trans. I wanted to show people that trans people are actually living fruitful, thriving lives and can take a joke and can tell a joke as well. Yeah. And then being on stage and being vulnerable.

I mean, to me it doesn't feel very vulnerable because I'm in control. I'm the one with the microphone. I get to position myself as not a victim that I'm controlling the narrative. telling the story. don't have, can, I can, the story can end however I want it to end because I've, it's my, I'm making it up. Like, you know,

And there's just so much silliness about being trans and like, there's just so much to find joyful being in being trans as well. There's so much material in how I'm seen, how I'm treated now by the general public. Now they see me as a man compared to seeing me as a woman. Like there's just so much of society that can be kicked out or

taken the mickey out of because of this obsession with gender and expectations that we have.

speaker-0 (34:26.913)
Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it?

speaker-1 (34:31.777)
Yeah, like I was working at this retirement village in a cafe there and it was the first time I really got seen as a guy since starting testosterone. And they, so they thought I was a man, a straight man married with a child. And so they treat me like that. And I get loads and loads of praise for the most tiny stuff. Like they're so impressed that I took my daughter to school or that I my wife dinner.

you know, all of that stuff was shocked me at the time. I was like, Oh, cause you hear about male privilege, but it's not until you actually experience it firsthand that it really clicks. Cause I could get it in a logical, a logical perspective, but then I was like, Oh, it's just those little things like low expectations.

speaker-1 (35:28.782)
So yeah.

speaker-0 (35:31.308)
Yeah. And I can imagine, you know, that sort of moving from like the perspective of people seeing you as a woman and treating you as a woman to the other way. They must take a bit of getting used to, I can imagine, just because of seeing the world a particular way or people seeing you in particular way.

speaker-1 (35:59.47)
Yeah, I did. In fact, because I was being seen as a man, as a straight man, and then coming from being an out lesbian for, like, since I was 17, for a long time, I didn't like it because I was like, I'm not a straight man. Like, I'm a queer person. Like, my daughter was not conceived traditionally. and so it felt like...

I was, I felt very constrained because I was like, I feel like now I'm expected to act in a certain way that that's not me. Like I felt like if I was a bit more flamboyant in a way that might be seen as odd or I don't know. So I felt very constrained. So I didn't like hiding the fact that I had not always been a man or whatever. felt hiding, I felt like hiding that wasn't

really me either because it's like you know if a woman was talking about a period and I was there they should be like you wouldn't know about this.

speaker-0 (37:08.864)
Okay. Yeah.

speaker-1 (37:10.968)
Okay, all right, fine. So, but it was a workplace. So it's not like I'm going to just be talking to people about my personal life anyway. it's so it was just odd. and so while I was coming to terms with that, I decided to pause testosterone for I paused it for nine months, because it was a bit discombobulating. didn't wasn't really sitting with me. So I paused it for nine months.

speaker-0 (37:13.802)
You

speaker-1 (37:41.102)
Just while I sort of reconfigured myself and which was a which it was really good to do just to it wasn't like I was regretful of the changes I just just wanted to sort out how I was seen in the world for myself and what I was comfortable with being seen as and then I don't know in that time

I must have just come to terms with it and or come to terms with who I am for myself that I don't it doesn't really matter that people see me as a straight man I can know who I am myself and my whole experience of who I am and so then I I think I I think towards the end of that nine months I think I've got like a she also done like in public by someone because you face kind of

changes in that time. So it must have got sort of re-feminized a bit. yeah, and then I didn't like that either. So I was like, right, I think it's time. I think it's time to go back on the testosterone. So I did. But this time I just felt like, I've really chosen now.

speaker-0 (38:59.446)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (39:01.07)
so I felt more comfortable with it. And plus I stopped working at the retirement village and I went back to working where I had worked previously and so they knew who I was previously. And so not that we talked about it, but I just felt like I felt like I was more comfortable to be myself.

speaker-0 (39:22.594)
Yeah, I think, you know, that brings up such a good point, because I think when you are a parent of a trans child, you often think about it just in the perspective of you having to see your child differently, that you forget that they're working out for themselves. Like, how do I see myself?

you know, like, what is my identity? There's quite a bit of things that they're going through as well that as a parent you might not totally get or not really think about.

speaker-1 (40:06.732)
Yeah. And I think for me, the more I go down this road, this journey, actually not, it becomes less of an identity and more of I'm just me. language and how I say I'm transmasc or I'm non-binary, that's for other people, for them to kind of place me. But actually the more I'm in it, it's just, I'm just me. Just like, you're probably just you, like, you know?

It's you're not thinking about your own gender all the time. It's something that you think as a trans person, you really do think of it a lot, overly obsessively compulsively a lot at the beginning. But then as time goes by and you know, hopefully if you're able to be affirmed in the ways that you want socially or medically or that kind of thing, then by then you can just start living your life and not obsessively think of

speaker-2 (41:05.868)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (41:09.71)
Chris, we're just looking at the time and I'm wondering, you know, there is a huge cross section in our audience of parents who might have neurodivergent children, but children who are also gender diverse because there is quite a big cross section. And I know that a lot of parents, especially like in my community and, you know, some of the parents who follow me on Instagram,

They might have their children looking at their identity or coming out about their identity. could you just perhaps give them a few suggestions or a few pointers on how to support their child when they start coming to them and talking about gender or having questions about gender? Because a lot of parents really struggle with

what to do next. know it was quite like my son came out to us using a slideshow. He created a slideshow and he put it up on our family television and he was very, it was great in the way that he explained it to us. And then he said, and I want to be called by this name and these are the pronouns. And he gave us some really great pointers on

what we needed to do next as parents, but I know that there are lots of families out there where their children might not give their parents some pointers on what to do next, or might be thinking, wow, I just, have no idea what to do, and I really want to support my child, but how do I do it?

speaker-1 (43:01.806)
Well, I don't have a trans child myself.

I think you've been in place. I mean, for me, it's like, don't panic, for one. Don't panic. Don't laugh at them like my mum did when I came out as a lesbian. think it was a nervous giggle. Yeah. I mean, there's so many kids. Yes, they know this is me now. But there's also a lot of kids that are

experimenting with different pronouns and stuff like that and then maybe they do try they them for a while then go back to she and like you know this is all kind of perfectly okay and natural of them exploring themselves and one thing that with my daughter she's you know she's definitely not trans she's she's a little girl but I just we just empower her things that she wants to explore

whatever that is and being trans or exploring your gender is just, it's part of that. But we seem to put it into this special category of, they're in for a life of suffering now. When actually it's, it's not that at all. It doesn't have to be that at all. So I would say firstly, just empower what they want. If they want to.

tried a different name or a different pronoun or different way of dressing or empower that and allow them to be a kid still as well. So I probably wouldn't be showing the kid any like negative stuff if you can that's out there and just allow them to be a kid. So all local organizations have different, different

speaker-1 (45:03.304)
way. if you're in Australia, Trans Hub is a really good resource. It's online and it's by Acon. And that will give you and it gives you all of the local things wherever you are, like there might be an Acon like in a regional area that you're in. Because it's definitely different being in Sydney or Melbourne than it is regional Australia for sure. So I mean, I went to Lyfgo and

they have someone working on the council there in the library and stuff that's just, she's a lesbian herself and so she does lots of stuff for queer and trans kids. So sometimes it's down to who actually works in the council, where you are and finding those people that are allies and putting on events for trans youth and stuff like that. Because I think if...

You can find places for them to be able to socialise amongst peers in a fun way. Like it doesn't all have to be serious doctors, counsellors, you know, all of that stuff. It could actually be about having fun and finding new friends who get you.

speaker-0 (46:21.272)
Thank you. What are some of the pointers that you would give Emma from your experience as a mum of a trans son? I'm going to ask, what was the question? I said, what could be some of the things that you might, what bits of advice might you offer to parents of trans children from your experience? in terms of parenting.

Yeah, yeah, well, but...

funny isn't it? I don't feel like an expert to be, do you know what mean? For me, with Prince, it's always just the most important thing for me is that he knows that I've got him, do you know what mean? Like I've got him, whatever. And you know, the world around can do whatever they want, but I've got him and I...

I value him exactly as he is. But I have had to fight for quite a few things from an advocating perspective, like in school and stuff like fighting for them to use the right pronouns and really pushing for that because it makes a really big difference for his sense of safety in school. So those are probably some of the things getting, I had to get an advocate to help us make that happen.

And just, guess, just being that soft place to land really. And I think for us, one of the things that's been really helpful, exactly what you were just saying, Chris, was we found a drama club that was a queer friendly.

speaker-0 (48:14.198)
mainly probably neurodivergent as well, during my club that he's just

very thrived and loved being at. That's been really helpful for him to find his people and his passion. Yeah, that's probably what I have as a non-expert, as someone muddling through.

speaker-1 (48:40.462)
That's so important though, is like finding a place that he can, like the drama club, and it just so happens that there people that he can feel comfortable with, maybe not everyone's gender diverse, or you know, but it's just being around people that you can just be comfortable to be yourself. So not constantly thinking, I hope they're seeing me for who I am, or I hope they're gonna refer me, or what if they say this, like, it's just finding those places, like.

speaker-0 (49:08.43)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (49:09.388)
Yeah, that you could just breathe.

speaker-0 (49:11.502)
Dad, just breathe. my gosh, that's a beautiful thing to say. And moments, you know, there's moments where you can just have a gig and be an idiot, How about you, Tanya? What are your thoughts? I was just thinking about how different our experiences of school are, because I was really frightened about the school because the first school my son went to was an all girls school, but he was a trans male.

speaker-2 (49:11.63)
them.

speaker-0 (49:41.518)
in an all-girls school. But we went for orientation and we had a teacher who was not so nice at the initial interview, but then when we went the second time, they automatically just put him down as he, him and his preferred name on the roll. And there had been quite a lot of bullying at that school, so we moved into another school this year. And it was the same thing. We didn't even have to fight.

or asked for it, they just automatically put it on. actually the children, the new school, the co-ed school, and some boys can be quite not so great. But he's also, he just managed to find his crowd of friends and yeah, there's still some people that are not so nice, but he has

really been able to find his people. I think it's you know, meeting your child where they're at and just keeping that line of communication open has been the most important thing for us and just make it safe for everybody to be learning together. You know, and

you know, at the beginning it was a bumpy road for our whole family because we were still trying to figure it out. and, but I think we just normalised that everybody is learning together and everybody's changing. We're going to make some mistakes and there are going to be, you know, some questions or just some, some ways that we might have to figure things out together. And yeah, and then we just,

We just muddled through together to get to a place where we are now and where he feels like his gender is affirmed in our home. So yeah, think it's just keeping those lines of communication open has been the most important thing in our family.

speaker-1 (51:55.468)
Yeah, and I think for any parent who is struggling a little bit to accept that they should definitely find other parents in the same, like with trans kids and yeah, they need to feel that they're not alone as well. And, you know, it's actually the sky's not falling in. We can do this.

speaker-0 (52:16.078)
Yeah. And I think that's why people like yourself are so important, Chris, because I think a lot of parents, when their child comes out as trans, they automatically think of the stereotype or how hard life's going to be. Yeah. And I think there are a lot of hard things out there in life in general, but having a different point of view or a different

You know, just an alternative of from that sort of depressed, struggling, you know, life's going to be absolutely awful for your child, which I think frightens a lot of parents to, hey, there are some really great aspects of this too. And what I've noticed with my son and my eldest child who's non-binary is they just feel so much more comfortable.

in who they are as a person. Now that they can express who they are and yeah and explore and experiment with their gender in a safe place because I could see how conflicted my son was before he came out and how much he was struggling with that.

speaker-1 (53:42.136)
Thanks.

speaker-0 (53:44.654)
Hey, did we want to do a little magic moment Emma? Sorry, we might put you on the spot here Chris, but we finished our podcast just with like a little thing like they've made us smile or just felt a little bit magical to us in the week or the last couple of weeks. Just that's the magic part of our podcast name. Yeah.

So did you have a magic moment Emma? I'm just thinking, I think I had, this is going to be weird and really random of course. yesterday I was feeling really sad and I had, I do this dancing thing with a group. It's just like free dancing to music on Zoom, which again, I knew was a bit strange. And I had this, I was listening to this beautiful song.

And all of a sudden I was able to have a cry. I'm not a good crier. The conditions have to be perfect for crying. It's like everything has to be right and I have to have the right song and I have to really try and concentrate. And it was like, I had this lovely little cry and I was giving myself a little hug. then I couldn't sit in it too long because it was a bit too emotional for me. So I had to go and shazam the song to distract me. Like, oh, okay, great. I can put that on my playlist.

But the whole experience, even though it was short and rather random and a bit weird, was quite delightful because I really, you know when you sometimes just need a, I need a circuit breaker and it actually felt really, I know it sounds a weird thing to say, but it felt really beautiful to just be like listening to a beautiful song, coming in a little quiet, forgetting the stuff to go through and then like feeling, okay, right, can carry on. So that's probably my magic moment. How about yourself?

I know I asked the question and now I've gone blank. But I think, the recipe magic for me this week is that my, my eldest child has gone to go visit their sister in another town. And so it's just been my, my son at home with my husband and I this week. And we just had some really cool times where we've watched Venom movies and, and Spider-Man movies and just sort of

speaker-0 (56:10.734)
had dinners on the couch because you usually eat like a bit on a table and things like that. And yeah, it's just been really like really fun to just have a laugh and be a little bit goofy with that. So yeah, this has been my little magical thing. Yeah, the magic of the ordinary kind of it's like lovely isn't it sometimes? is, it is. Yeah, it's just really lovely sometimes to just have those normal moments that just feel feel lovely.

Yeah. Talking, before we, Chris, I know we're going to do your magic moment if you are up for it. But I was just, watched you talking about the faraway tree and I was like, because I went to see that as well. And I was like, had a real passion for that book. I was watching it. Because Sokia Moonface had changed so dramatically thinking about movies.

speaker-1 (57:09.614)
Yeah

speaker-0 (57:10.122)
expecting Moonface to look very differently to how he did.

speaker-1 (57:14.444)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It was like they got Andrew Garfield to play the dad and so they're like, let's just make it all about the dad.

speaker-0 (57:22.998)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

speaker-1 (57:24.526)
Anyway.

speaker-0 (57:26.062)
I'm you'll mention.

speaker-1 (57:30.094)
I was in a bad mood the other morning and I was getting ready for work and it was early school holidays but my daughter got up, she got up, it was like 6.30 in the morning and I was about to leave and she came and she's like all bleary-eyed and just got out of bed and she came and gave me a big cuddle and she squeezed me really tight and it was like, this is exactly what I needed.

That really just adjusted my mood for the rest of the day. it was like a aha moment. I was like, oh wow, like that just lovely, beautiful cuddle from my daughter just really adjusted me. I don't know. was like, so now I'm like, give me a big cuddle right now.

speaker-0 (58:17.351)
speaker-1 (58:19.798)
And then yesterday we went shopping and she had some money to spend, she her jobs, tidies her room every week or whatever. And then she bought this beaver, like a big cuddly beaver. But she kept saying like, gotta look after your beaver, like that. Funny to us adults.

speaker-0 (58:31.924)
Thanks.

speaker-0 (58:40.75)
You

speaker-1 (58:42.338)
And then this morning she looked at the label on it and it said mama and we were like, what's a mama? And it's like this other beaver like, yeah. And she was going, well, it's always going to be a beaver to me.

speaker-0 (58:55.052)
hahahahah

speaker-1 (58:57.838)
So that's been very funny.

speaker-0 (59:03.554)
Lovely. Beautiful. Lovely. Well, thank you so much for coming on with us, Chris. And yeah, it was such a so lovely for you to, you know, I only messaged you on the weekend and you've been jumping on online with us this week. So thank you so much. It's been really lovely chatting to you. My son was so excited when I was showing, he's like,

That's so cool, but... I've got to go. Hey friends. Thank you so much.

speaker-1 (59:32.312)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (59:39.182)
Thank you. Okay, take care. Bye.

speaker-0 (59:42.797)
Bye.